Pine Belt Pacers Forum

Sat. - I had not planned to run the Acorn 5k, thought I would be out of town, but my trip was delayed, I needed more miles for the week, and it is near my house so Friday I decided I would jump in. This was another "fun" run for me. As stated many times recently, I am not running great and this is a hilly course, so I could easily go into the race relaxed knowing not to expect much as far as time is concerned. I am really enjoying these relaxed runs. (I have another one next week at the Country Music half marathon - no expectations, I am running for fun). I really enjoyed the Acorn 5k. I loved the residential loop (very tired of the out and back on the trail 5ks). Enjoyed visiting with my good buddy Dennis Devore who I haven't seen in a few years, nice to see the Fords, enjoyed visiting with Audrey and Raul, appreciated Donna's help with the race, etc. etc. When I finished the 5k and noticed the clock, my very first quick thought was "finally, a break through", then immediately after that thought, my next thought was "the course was short." Reality bites - my time was 23:28 - currently - I know that I am not running that kind of time, especially on the hills. Yep, the Garmin confirms my suspicion, 2.99. Dennis also said someone else with a Garmin had 3.01. So my 5k time would really be around 24:13 for the 5k. I always try to find a positive with the situation so a few weeks ago I ran the MS River Bridge run which had 1 mile uphill and I ran 24:28, the Acorn race was on rolling hills and I ran around 24:13 so I am going to look at that for my positive.

The Acorn run was an excellent race. Well organized, great course, I would highly recommend this race next year. My only recommendations would be to start the race on time and to check the course distance. Overall - great job.

I needed some more miles for the week, and I wanted to have Sunday as an easy walking day so Audrey and I ran another 3 miles after the race. Audrey needed to leave, I wanted to finish my mileage for the week so I ran another 3 miles. So today, with warm up, race, extra mileage after the race, I ended up with 10.5 miles.

Will end the week with 24 miles running (tapering a little for Country Music), 41 miles easy biking, and will walk around 2 miles today.

Looking forward to CM Half next weekend and the trip with Kelly and Sondra.

Sunday - walked 30 minutes at the Golden Meadow, LA park.
Monday - 3 mile tempo run @ 8:11 pace, along the lakefront, NO, and walk to get 30 minutes.
Tues. - Thames track - 6.5 miles total. 1.25 mile w/u, 8 X 400 Vicki and I averaged 1:48 and Todd, Audrey, and Jim were well ahead of us. 1 mile c/d and some walking laps. We had a good group at the track Audrey, Vicki, Todd (new to the group - tri athlete - works in H'burg every other week) and I ran 800's. Jim joined us later in the workout - nice to see him back at the track. Karen and ????(didn't get to meet him), Janice, Mike, and Eric ran their individual workouts. (I hope I didn't leave anyone out, sorry if I did). Played Volleyball - 8:15pm-10:30pm

Wed. - walk 30 minutes.

The rest of the week will be easy, resting up for the Sat. half. I will run the race on Sat. and then I am WAY over due for a 2 week running break. Looking forward to it. No running - and I will do my minimum workout for 2 weeks which is 30 minutes of walking or biking.

After the 2 weeks off, I will have around 4 weeks to train for the Renaissance Half. I will run that for FUN, and then take another 1-2 weeks off, then I will start training for the St. George marathon if I get in, or plan B if I do not get into St. George. I have not planned out what plan B is at this point.

At the end of the year, I am considering running the 3 in 3 in Alabama. It is 3 AL marathons in 3 months. Dec. - Huntsville (I am pretty sure I will do this one for sure), Jan. - First Light, and Feb. - Mercedes B'ham.
Anyone want to join me for 1 or all 3?

I'm back at it! After 2 weeks of walking or biking for 30 minutes each day, and being sick for about 8 days, I was very happy to get back to running today. I ran 3 miles in about 28 minutes and then walked for a while after running. Felt good - felt some tightness behind my knees, but other than that - good run. So glad and thankful to be back and healthy.

I made it into the St. George marathon in Oct. so the rest of the summer will be devoted to the goal of a pr in Utah. First step, lose some lbs. really, I need and must drop 7-10 lbs. to be able to reach my goals. I am hoping by posting it on this forum I will find some motivation to really concentrate on this first and probably most important step in the process. Any motivational tips, ideas, etc are appreciated.

Tues. - went to yoga at The Yoga Room. After missing a couple of weeks of yoga, it was definitely a challenge. Tues. evening I met Audrey at the billboard to do some hill repeats. We ran around 5 miles total with a 1.5 mile w/u and 1.5 mile c/d. Audrey, the speedster, was the leader of the pack. I just wanted to get some hills in at a moderate pace and get back into a routine. I felt pretty good about the run.

Wed. - Amber and I ran 6 miles in Bent Creek, more hills. After the yoga and the 2 back to back runs - Wed. pm and Thurs. am - ouch! Sore all over - quads screaming, abs screaming, shoulders screaming - but I like it.

Today I waited until 8:30 to start my 6 mile run. Trying to get ready for the heat at Renaissance. If you think South MS is hot and humid, come on down to South LA (1:15 min. southwest of NO - 3 hours south of H'burg) and give it a try. Then you will actually look forward to your H'burg runs. 78 degrees and the air is thick. I ran 6 miles @ 9:35 pace.

In 2005, when I trained during the summer for the Dublin marathon, I swore I would never do an early fall marathon again. Well, I changed my mind, but today is a little reminder of the challenge ahead. I have been debating my marathon schedule, and for a long time, I have debated lsd (long slow distance) runs vs. near marathon race pace long runs. For the past several marathons I have opted for the race pace long runs and I totally believe that is what has gotten me to the prs that I have achieved, BUT for this marathon, I am really giving the lsd runs some major consideration. I am thinking with the heat, my age, and the early fall marathon, this is an excellent time to give the lsd runs a try. For me, there is no way that I will be able to do the marathon race pace runs July-Sept. I have shyed away from lsd runs because I am a mental runner and for me, I can't really get my mind around my practice being at 1-2 minutes slower than race pace and then magically "turning it on", on race day. Let me also say, I do believe in lsd runs for most people, and I have seen it in action(Vicki comes to mind) and it does work, but for me - ?????? Guess I will see this summer. Just thinking.....

I agree that the LSD concept is not for everyone, but that is what I did when I trained for the 20 marathons that I ran. I think the key to it being right for a person is whether the person is mentally tough enough to "turn it on" in the marathon. Also, in addition to the LSD, you will need to do the other components of training---rest, tempo, speed and recovery. Also, for the marathon that you will be doing, you will need to do some hill training.

I have been working on an article that is about this training concept. It is in the rough stages, but I will send it to you as soon as I get it to the point that you can comprehend what I'm trying to say.

Thanks Becky - always appreciate the feedback.

First - I would love to see your list of marathons, I am sure you have a few Houstons, but what others did you do.

Second - don't you wonder what you could have done if you would have tried some near race pace runs? I know that wasn't typical at the time, but you have to wonder, don't you?

Third - looking forward to reading the article. Please send it my way as soon as it's somewhat ready.

Fourth - racing and mental toughness - not sure about that???? When it comes to training, I think I am the toughest runner on my block (not many runners on my block - ha ha), but races, especially the marathon when I get to the last 6 miles, when it's mostly mental, I think I have the tendency to cave a little.

It's all good! Yes, my training will be mostly on hills, and hill repeats - some up, some down, some track, lots of tempos this time, and definitely rest - big believer in the rest thing.

Sun. - today was a 30 min. walk with Chad in the Golden Meadow, LA park.
Ended the week with 20 miles of running, some walking, and 1 yoga class.

My goal for the upcoming week will be to up my mileage, I hope to be able to get back to my weight routine, and 1-2 yoga classes, but I have a busy week so all of that might be a little ambitious. I will definitely up my mileage. I will be running the 10K in McHenry on Tues. Not really ready for a race, but I will use it as a way of getting back to my weekly tempo runs.

Ginny,

Do you do a mid-week "semi-long" run?

Terry

Hello Terry,

For the past several marathons I have basically ran track, long, and tempo/race most weeks. For a couple of marathons I followed the Furman plan, for the later marathons, I wanted to up my mileage, so I added 2-3 additional easy running days and I gradually upped my mileage from around 25 miles to 50 miles for 2-3 weeks (not consecutive). I kept the 3 quality workouts, and then filled in the other days to achieve the goal mileage for the week. So when the mileage was higher, yes I had a semi-long run, but it was at an easy pace.

This time I am changing things up a bit. I think I am settling on something similar to the Hal Higdon intermediate program, except that I will use Mondays to alternate track, hills, and temp runs. This will be a little different for me because this schedule has a pace run which is half the distance of the long run for the week, and they are run back to back. So my week will look like this. (I changed the days because I like to run long during the week, not on the weekends)
Monday - a rotation of track, tempo, and hills anywhere from 5 miles going up to 10 in the later part of the program.
Tues. - 3-5 easy
Wed. - cross
Thurs - 5 miles going up to 10 with most weeks being at marathon pace. (basically you run pace, pace, and then the next week is just run - then pace, pace, run, etc.)
Friday is the lsd run which is typically double the distance of Thurs. run.
Sat. - cross
Sun - 3 working up to 5 later in the program.
This program works up to 3 50 mile weeks. I might up it to 55, but that would be max. for me this time. The 50 mile weeks will depend on how I handle the mileage and the heat this summer. I handled the 50 mile weeks fine last time, but that was in cool weather.

The Thurs./ Friday part will definitely be new for me. I typically will not run 2 back to back hard days, but with the second day being at a slower pace, I don't think it will be a problem. ?????

I am still deciding, but currently this is what I am leaning toward for St. George. Let me know what you think or if you have tried Hals programs in the past.

Monday - 5 miles easy 10:07 pace 50:35

Ginny,

In my experience, LSD programs work IF you also run several mid-week, semi-long runs that are run at planned race pace. The combination of semi-long runs run at pace and LSD runs builds the stamina and endurance needed to run a good marathon. If you don't run the semi-long/pace runs, the LSD runs don't adequately prepare you to run a "fast" marathon.

Higdon's program is good, however I think the main reason he places the semi-long run and the long run back-to-back is so you don't run the long run too fast (you're too tired from the previous day's "pace" run). Personally, I preferred to run the semi-long run in the middle of the week and run my long run 3 days later. I would also run the mid-week runs from 12 to 14 miles in length (60-65% the distance of the week's long run).

I like your plan and would recommend you stick with it to see how your body responds. I know for me much of the fun of running is experimenting with my training to see if I can improve my results.

Terry

Thanks Terry -

A few more questions:

Are you alternating mid-week pace runs with hill repeats/track, or do you have another day devoted to hill repeats or track?

That's exactly what I thought about the pace run/lsd run back to back. Now that I am accustomed to running the long runs near race pace, it's very hard to run lsd runs. I get bored. I was thinking that I definitely would not be pushing the pace on the lsd run if I just completed the pace run the day before. I might give it a try that way and then see if I need to adjust.

For me - the training and figuring out the programs, etc. is the neat part of the marathon. It's really so involved and technical and that is what keeps me enticed, entertained, etc. (of course, I have the tendency to make it extra technical)

Which program do you prefer lsd or pace long runs? What type of program has worked the best for you overall Would love to see a list of the marathons that you have completed- I know about of few Boston, Portland, Huntsville.

What's on your racing list coming up, marathons or others?

Ginny,

Q - Are you alternating mid-week pace runs with hill repeats/track, or do you have another day devoted to hill repeats or track?

I mix up my training and generally run two hard weeks then one recovery week. On the recovery week I’ll run about 32-35 miles with (maybe) one hill run, but all runs are run at about a 7:45 pace (even the hill run).

Typical Long Weeks – I don’t run these distances all time, I build up to them. I try to run 6-8 of these prior to a marathon. Quite often though, work, family, injury, etc. cause me to have to adjust my schedule.

(1) Hard Week
Sunday – Long Run (18-22 miles with 10-12 at planned race pace or slightly faster)
Monday – Recovery (4 miles @ 8:00 pace or cross-train or off)
Tuesday – Easy Run (4-6 miles @7:30 pace)
Wednesday Easy Run (8-10 miles at 7:45 pace)
Thursday – Hill Repeats (6-8 miles total with hill repeats run at tempo pace). Usually 1.5 mile warm-up, then six to eight 1/3 mile up-hills with equal distance down-hill as recovery, then 1.5 mile cool down.
Friday – Recovery (4 miles @ 8:00 pace or cross train or off).
Saturday – Easy Run (4-6 miles at 7:45 pace).

(2) Hard Week
Sunday – Long Run (18-22 miles @ 7:50 pace)
Monday – Recovery (4 miles @ 8:00 pace or cross-train or off)
Tuesday – Easy Run (4-6 miles @7:30 pace)
Wednesday Semi-Long Run (12 -14 miles at 7:15 to 7:30 pace or a “combination” run where I mix easy running, pace running and tempo running for a total of 12 to 14 miles. For instance, I might run 2 miles easy then 3 miles at planned race pace then 1 mile at tempo pace with .25 mile recovery (3 sets), then 3 miles at planned race pace, then 2 miles easy. I love this run. The second 3 miles at planned race pace is tough. It helps to simulate those last few miles of the marathon when you have to dig to maintain pace. This can even be done for your weekly long run if your long run mileage is 12-14 miles.
Thursday – Easy Run (6-8 miles at 8:00 pace)
Friday - Hill Work (4-6 miles at 7:30 pace on hilly course).
Saturday – Easy Run (4-6 miles at 7:45 pace).

(3) Easy Week
Sunday – 8 miles
Monday – 4 miles or cross-train
Tuesday –Off
Wednesday – 4 miles
Thursday – 5 miles
Friday – 6 miles
Saturday – 6 miles.

Q - Which program do you prefer lsd or pace long runs?

Good question. I think it kind of goes full cycle. LSD is better, then pace long runs, then back to the LSD approach.

For most of us when we first begin to tackle the marathon distance, just surviving the event is an accomplishment. We start by running 5k’s, then the “bug” hits and we run one, maybe two ½ marathons and then decide to tackle a full marathon. We strap into a 10, maybe 12 week program and deem ourselves ready. In this scenario it is no wonder all we have time for is a few long runs run at a very slow pace. Anything more would overtax our abilities and we would wind up injured or burned out.

After training for a couple of marathons with the above approach, the body is acclimated to the effort and is ready for more. One way of improving your performance without having to dedicate much more time to training is to increase the effort of the long run (the bread and butter of marathon training). As you (and I) experienced, this resulted in improved performance, but eventually a plateau is reached.

In order to improve, a new approach is needed – which is the old approach. LSD training. The important difference is the mid-week semi-long run. In essence you are combining the two approaches. The long run, which is run slowly, and an additional “almost long” run, which is run at race pace. The added effort (and weekly mileage) will normally result in improved performance.

So… to answer your question I now prefer the LSD approach.

Q - Would love to see a list of the marathons that you have completed- I know about of few Boston, Portland, Huntsville.

I started running in May of 2002 to get back into shape. I have now run 13 marathons. I am doing the Hotter’N Hell 100 century ride in August of this year and then running the Marine Corps Marathon in October. I’ll run Boston again next year, and will probably run the Midsouth Championship Marathon in Wynne, Arkansas in November 2010. That was the site of my first marathon, and I have always wanted to go back and improve my performance (which won’t be hard to do). My marathons are:

2003 – Midsouth Marathon (4:56:24).
2004 – Houston Marathon (3:33:19), Country Music Marathon (3:54:28 ), Hotter'N Hell 100.
2005 – Austin Marathon (3:51:14).
2006 – Houston Marathon (3:11:58 ), Country Music (3:24:56 ), Portland Marathon (3:14:56).
2007 – Boston Marathon (3:32:53), Rocket City Marathon (3:15:50).
2008 – Boston Marathon (3:27:02), Tupelo Marathon (3:24:33), Baton Rouge (3:09:43).
2009 – Boston Marathon (3:15:36).

Terry

Ginny asked me to post my marathon times. I know that I have run 20 and my PR was just over 3:20, but I can't seem to find the documentation for all. Hey! It's been over 30 years since I ran my first marathon. I was an advocate of the LSD, with a mid-week semi-long run and I raced just about every other weekend when marathon training. In Houston, we had a Championship series that began with the 5K distance, then 10K, 15K, 20K, 25K, and 30K leading up to the marathon. I also ran a bunch of other races. So, even though I say I was an advocate of LSD, I was doing some fast racing at various distances.

Here are the races for which I found or guessed at times:

1976 - Crowley, LA - Don't have the time for this one, but I think it was around 3:30
1977 - Houston - 3:41:18
1978 - Houston - 3:35:38
1978 - Crowley, LA - 3:28
1978 - Dallas - 3:27:23
1979 - Boston - 3:40 I had not trained properly due to injury
1979 - Dallas - 3:23:14
1980 - Baton Rouge - 3:26:37
1981 - Mardi Gras - 3:37:39 ran across the causeway into head wind
1981 - Dallas - 3:26:30
1982 - Houston - 3:27:06
1982 - Dallas - 3:20 something
1983 - Houston - 3:25:50
1984 - Dallas - 3:23:50
1985 - Marine Corps - 3:29:28
1986 - Houston - 3:35 something
1987 - Dallas - 3:54 ran with my former brother-in-lw for his one and only marathon
1988 - Dallas - 4:19 ran with daughter for her first of to marathons
1990 - Houston - 3:40 something
1992 - Twin Cities - 3:55:44 - ran with son-in-law for his first and only mrathon