Pine Belt Pacers Forum

Ginny,

Didn't you PR at Stennis (Nov. '07) and then at Houston (Jan. '09)? Were your training programs similar?

Terry

Yep, very similar I believe, but I think I may have stepped it up a little for Houston, well actually, I know I did mileage wise. For me, weather was a slight issue at Houston. It wasn't real humid, but it was on the warm side, for me. So I truly believe I would have ran a better time if the weather would have been typical for the Houston marathon.

I have NO luck in the weather dept., lately, well since Stennis 07, it was cool weather for that one. Guess I need to sign up for an Alaska marathon or something.

Good thought though, I am going to look back at Stennis and check it out to see how close the training was for that one vs. Houston.

For some reason I thought they were, but wanted to verify first. My first thought is that you already have a program that works for you. You probably just need to tweak a couple of things, not abandon the program.

I believe your main issue in the marathon (and not a unique problem) is fading during the last 6-8 miles. I would focus on tweaking those things that improve stamina and endurance. Based on your 5k times, you have the speed necessary to run about a 3:45:00 marathon, what you lack is the necessary stamina and endurance to keep your pace beyond the 20 mile mark. The best way to do that is to make sure you run enough long runs, and enough tempo runs. Another great workout for this is what Greg McMillan calls the “fast finish long run”. He recommends doing both types of long runs during marathon training – that is LSD runs and fast finish long runs. Below is an excerpt from his web site describing the fast finish long run.

Fast Finish Long Run

The second type of long run is completely different than the long, steady run. The fast finish becomes the focus of this run. You start the workout at your normal easy run pace, increase it slightly in the middle of the run then try to average your goal marathon pace for the last 30 to 90 minutes of the run. I say 'average' because you will gradually increase to marathon pace but one thing that most people miss is the fast finish
So, a generic long run for someone who's goal marathon pace is 8:00 per mile might be that the first 12 miles of a long run will be at 8:30 to 9:00 per mile, then the pace over the last 6 miles will average 8:00 per mile with the last couple of miles at 7:15 to 7:30 pace. Believe me, this is a tough run so you will need to get mentally and physically prepared.
The fast finish long run provides an opportunity to practice your marathon routine. Have the same dinner the night before as you plan to have the night before your race. Get hydrated like before the race. Wake up like its race day. Do exactly what you plan to do on race day even to the extent of wearing your race gear - shorts, singlet, socks, racing shoes. This is a true "test run" for the marathon. Also, you want to eat carbs before and during this run. P lease note that I just said I DO recommend carbohydrates before and during the fast finish long runs. This point has been overlooked by many runners. In fact, you want to mimic the exact nutrition plan that you will do during the marathon. It's likely that you'll have sports drinks every two miles. You may also be carrying energy with you so practice your plan. You'll be amazed at what you will learn about your planned pre-marathon routine - the things that work and the things that don't. When marathon day arrives, you'll be cool and calm because the routine will be second nature to you.

Our general rule when I coached the Discovery USA program was that if you could finish a 14- to 22-mile fast finish long run with the last 8-12 miles at your goal marathon pace and the last 2-3 miles at 10K race pace, then you would have no problem accomplishing your goal in the marathon. For the first fast finish long run, the initial few miles would be about a minute and a half slower than marathon race pace and only the last 5-10K would be fast. But, by the time the last fast finish long run would come around, the initial few miles would be only 30 seconds slower than marathon race pace and the last 15-20K would average goal marathon pace. You can follow this guideline as you implement these workouts into your training.

Thanks Terry! You are very helpful. I have attempted a few fast finish long runs, but like the tempos, haven't been consistent with that. For the past few years, I have been super consistent with the track work, and long runs, but the tempos have been hit or miss, with some races that I called tempos, but were at the wrong pace for my true marathon training tempo runs.

I like the track/ I hate the tempos - so "there ya go." BUT this time, I will step it up with tempos for sure, and hill repeats, and some track work.

Monday - 5 miles @ Canebrake at 8:40 pace. Good run.
Tues. - jogged 3 miles @ 10:00 pace, and went to Kelly yoga class @ Speirs Fitness and Yoga Center. Good Class!
Wed - today Kelly and I met @ 7am for a 5 mile run in Lake Serene. New loop for me. Glad to learn it. I like to mix up the runs, so this will be good to know. I haven't run much in Lake Serene because I am scared of all of the dogs. This was a nice, easy pace, run today.

Thurs - 10 mile hilly bike ride about 12 mph on hybrid - started this ride @ 11:50 am, and on the bike, it was ok.

Fri - today Amber and I ran/walked 8 miles. 6 am start

Sat - today, I started at 8:30, wunderground reported 82 degrees, 100% humidity, and 96 degree heat index, in south LA (feeling sorry for Chad who has to work out in the heat everyday). I hydrated really well before the run, and I decided to carry my water with me instead of driving to drop the water. Normally, I do not require water for a 4 mile run, but with the extreme heat, I make sure that I have water every 20 minutes. I did not run fast, but felt good during the run, even with the extreme heat. For me, hydration is the key. Over the past few years, it is mandatory. For me, water is just as important as having good running shoes. This is mostly because I am trying to do everything I can to have a decent run. If I am dehydrated, I do not feel as good on my runs, so I try to do all of the things that I can in hopes of a good run.

Do I always have good runs, NO, as documented many times on this forum, but when I have a bad run, it's probably not because of dehydration. Drink up - you will feel better. As someone who has always struggled in the heat, I can tell you, that you can get accustomed to running in the heat. You just need to be careful, especially if you are starting now. Will I ever be fast in the heat, I don't think so, but you can learn to run in the heat and feel better, even in extreme heat like we have now. I proved this to myself a couple of years ago. It's almost like a HUGE hill you have to get over. You feel awful, trying to get acclimated to the heat, but once you get over the hill, you finally feel that you can do it, and feel a little better in the heat. Also, as mentioned before, if I am going over an hour, I also use Gatorade and gels to replace the electrolytes. Be Careful!

Gotta Go - gotta drink some water.

Ok - so I have my marathon plan ready. This time, with my long run partner being out, most of my long runs will be solo. For a couple of years, I have I wanted to try a 9-10 day training plan. This type of plan is not easy to coordinate, if you are running with someone weekly, so I thought this would be the perfect time to give it a try. So my schedule will look something like this. I will have a hard day, then 2 days of active recovery, but not hard. So Monday is my first day, it will be Tempo - 3 tempo 5 total, Tues. WEd - easy, Thurs. will be hill repeats, Fri. Sat - easy, Sun - Long - 10. So then the next week will be Mon Tues - easy, WEd. Tempo,
Thur. Fri - easy, Sat - mile repeats 2X1 - 5 total, Sun Monday Easy, Tues.- Long 12.. etc.

So I will have a long run approximately every 9 days, tempo every 9 days, and track/ hill repeats every 9 days. I think this type of program will work well for me. It will give me the recovery that I need, but it will have quality days that I enjoy. Each time I will rotate the track workout which will mostly be mile repeats and 800s, the next rotation will be hill repeats which will include some downhill repeats to get ready for St. George. Not sure if every 9 days is a good thing or not, but this is the plan.

The debate comes in Sept. I am trying to decide whether to race the 14 mile race in Tupelo, or do the full marathon. For a few years, I have been thinking I need a full 26-27 miler in my training to get me through those last 6 miles, or a 4 plus hour training run. (again for 90 % of the people, 20 miles is the most you ever need) I may be totally wrong, but I have been debating it. (Margie tells me I need a 26 miler, like I need a hole in my head, LOL)

Note: if I do the full, I would probably try to do it 30 seconds to 1 minute slower than my goal race pace at SGM.

Issues with doing the full at Tupelo:
I have always thought if I attempted a full in training, that I would do it 5-6 weeks before the marathon. Tupelo will be 4 weeks before SGM.

A summer marathon training plan may not be the ideal time to try to fit a full into my training plan.

Issues with the 14 miler:
If I race the half that will mess up my last long run before SGM. I would either be forced to race that week, and do the last 20 miler the next week, which I can do, with no problem, but will the quality on the 20 miler be there?

Or not do that last long run which would give me too many weeks without a really long run. Especially if I do a little taper before the 14 miler.

The other option would be to race the 14 miler with a mile w/u, and then get another 5 miles in. (problem with this is, the last 5 miles will be at a snails pace, with no quality). Also, this is 4 weeks before SGM. So this puts my last long run 4 weeks out. What will I do with the taper, which is really hard for me at 3 weeks.


So again, I am thinking out loud and looking for opinions. Let me have them. What should I do? For me - there is a down side to any of the issues, so in the end, I will need to decide which option gives me the best chance physically and mentally. But I am interested in what you think.

Well, I say, race it with me, we can do a PR together!! I know Terry will have some good advice when he gets back from fishing with Charles, but it looks like that kind of a hard run that you are talking about may be a little too close to your taper. (Hey, maybe I am learning something from you "training" type runners). I have never done a taper, nor have I ever stuck with a training plan (until now)!! Ginny, whatever you decide, even if you go into the 14 miler with the plan to run hard, I know that you are a very smart runner and will either speed up or slow down as you need to. So, I know I wasn't much help, other than to say, go with what you know, you will do great!!

Sun - easy walk day. walked the last 10 minutes with Chad, after his run, then a snow cone.

Monday - First day of St. George training. 5 miles with a 3 mile tempo run, kind of. Because of the extreme heat, I do not go over 20 min. without water. So when I made it to mile 2 I stopped for water. This was mile 1 for my tempo. Then I ran the other 2 tempo miles. So it wasn't a continuous run like I would prefer, but I would rather hydrate and be safe than run the tempo exactly as it should have been run. Tempo miles - 8:36, 8:24, 8:28. With the heat and the first day of training that was all I had for a tempo today, but I will get there later in my training. Hopefully!

Tues. - easy 5 mile run in Gulf Shores. Started the run @ 7:45 pm. Truck said 90 degrees, not telling what the heat index was. I ran around 9:30 pace, and I am really excited about the way I felt with the heat. Not worried about the speed, this was an easy day, just happy to feel descent in this heat.

WEd. - walked 30 min. am with Linde in Gulf Shores.

Thurs - am - I did some arm weight work, a few push- ups, and some core work. Brief workout, trying to get back into the habit of fitting this part of the training in. I definitely need the core work to be consistent over the next 3 months. pm - the billboard run. 5 miles total - 1 mile w/u and c/d and then 4 X .86 . Ran a little faster tonight than the last time we did this workout. I went out too fast on the first one, but felt pretty good about the whole workout.

next - 2 easy days, and then 10 miles on Sunday.

I really enjoyed the Billboard run. Definetly a challenge but nice change. My application is in the mail to join the Pacers!!!

Fri - 4 miles easy in Golden Meadow - forgot the Garmin - HATE THAT! I probably ran a little too fast, but not too bad. Felt good after the hills Thurs. evening.

Sat. - easy bike ride with Chad and Scott in Golden Meadow, LA

Sunday - 10 miles @ 9:01 pace (2 water stops). No hills in South LA, so I had to opt for a bridge run in Larose, LA. I found a 3.5 mile loop that incorporates 2 bridges so that I would get some hills in. Julie Cheramie joined me for the first loop and then she headed back to the flats to get in a few more miles. I walked an additional 3 miles after the run and then I did 5-10 minutes of stretching. Oh, I almost forgot, the best part, I found a roll of string and $4.90. Love to find stuff, especially money.

This week - 29 miles - dang, I forgot I only did 5 of 6, on Thurs and had planned to make it up later in the week, but then I forgot. I will not tell a lie, it is bugging me (yes, I have issues), but not enough to do anything about it . 30 just sounds better. Missed my yoga this week, not good.

My first week of St. George training was great. I am liking the 2 recovery days between my hard runs. It gives me the opportunity to really look forward to the hard days, and I am able to run better quality runs with the extra recovery. I know it's just the first week, but I think it's going to work well for me. Happy that the heat has not really been an issue. So glad I did the "heat training" in prep for the Renaissance.

Week of June 29 - 34 miles - at least 1 yoga class, some weights.
Wed. - will be a tempo day - 7 miles total with 3.5 miles being tempo at 8:15-8:30 pace.
Sat. - 5 miles total with 2 X 1 mile repeats @ 7:45 hopefully, it's been a LONG time, so we will see.
Other days will be mileage to get me to that 34

Monday - 8 miles easy. Monitoring my heart rate to stay in zone 3 (for me under 145) 10:30 pace with 2 walking water stops. After the run, I ran 7 X 11-12 seconds hard, then some stretching. Monday pm - weights, lunges, squats, push ups, core work. Good start to the week.

Tues - 11:30 biked 10 miles on hills. What a beautiful day. Thankful to be able to get out and enjoy the beautiful breezy day. 12.2 mph avg. 49:02

Wed. - today I had a 7 mile run with 3.5 miles being tempo. This time, I stopped for water before the 3.5 started so that I could run the tempo as it should be, without stopping. This week I added a half mile to my tempo. My tempo miles were 8:21, 8:16, 8:16, and 4:10. This was run in an area that is not totally flat, but not very hilly. Feeling good about this run. Picked up the tempo pace a little from last week.

Good run!

Went to yoga - this is where is got a little tricky. From running the 7 miles, my legs were burning a couple of times and I had to "come out of the poses" Warrior poses are tough after a hard run.